Comments
Posted by Patrick on February 13, 2003 6:05 PM:
Before going to this protest, I ask you to step back and ask, what am I protesting? What is the point that you want to make?
You have every right to protest. This is America, and we have more freedom than any other country in the world. No people, at any time in the history of mankind, have had personal freedoms like we have. Our country, our government, is based on the principal that all people are free; all people have the right to self-determination.
Whether people want to admit it or not, we are at war.
This is not a traditional war. We are not fighting a country or a government entity. We are fighting for our freedoms and our very way of life. We are fighting to prove that our way of life, our form of government, our tolerant and open society is superior and should remain as the beacon of hope for all oppressed peoples throughout the world.
The people we are at war with want to destroy America, and our way of life. They disagree with the very foundation on which our county was founded. They do not feel that all people are created equal. They do not feel that all people, regardless of their race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc etc are created equal and should enjoy the same rights. Our enemies do not believe that everyone has the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.
In America, you have the right to protest. If our enemies win this war, you will not have the right to protest. You may have very little rights. You or your family may be dead. Infidels should be killed. You are, as an American, an infidel. Do not think I am being dramatic.
There is evil, and there is good in this world. If you ever doubted that, than September 11th should have been a wake up call. Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Ladin, al Queda, the Taliban, North Korea, and yes, the principals behind fundamental, radical Islam are evil. (Islam is not evil. Radical, fundamental Islam, and its use of jihad to kill infidels, and its intolerance of religion, women and many, many other freedoms, is wrong, and it is evil.)
The evil we are fighting does not respect individual rights. Our enemies are not tolerant of opposing views. They imprison and murder dissidents to achieve power. They lie and deceive to maintain their power. They will stop at nothing to spread their way of life. Again, if you think I am being dramatic, please replay the images we all have seared in our heads of those planes crashing into the twin towers.
If you oppose the use of force, if you feel war is never justified, if you are a pacifist, then let me pose a few questions.
First, a moral dilemma. Imagine yourself alone with Adolph Hitler, in 1939, right before his invasion into Poland, and the start of WWII. You have a gun, and he does not. Are you morally right or morally wrong to kill him and put an end to the suffering he has already caused to tens of thousands of Jews and other Europeans, and prevent the further carnage his terror will reap on mankind?
Second, WWII did happen. If there was ever a just war, where not just military might, but right, also won out, then WWII was it. There is no better example of America, along with our allies, using our forces, and yes, fighting a war, for a greater good. At times, violence and war can be justified. It is unfortunate, but evil is part of human nature. At times force may be needed to put down that evil, especially if it can prevent an even greater evil. War should never be praised or sought, but its unfortunate necessity needs to be recognized
Third, as C.S. Lewis stated, pacifism is "taking the straight road to a world where there will be no pacifists". If you are a pacifist, if you are a protestor, if you enjoy your freedoms as an American, then you owe a thank you to the war we fought against Hitler. Your pacifism is only possible due to the "nonpacific" actions of brave men and women who fought for you. Our enemies, in WWII, and in today's war, clearly do not believe in pacifism.
If you feel that our enemy's evil is America's fault, and you want to blame America for Saddam, and the Twin Towers, and the Taliban, than I may not be able to reason with you. It is obvious to me that America is on the high moral ground in this fight. It is obvious that our freedoms, our way of life, is worth fighting for, and many, many people throughout the world agree with me.
Many, many people try to argue that the world hates America. I do not agree. I think most people in the world ENVY us, and wish they too had the freedoms we so easily enjoy. If you don't agree, then why do people leave their family, their home and everything they have to immigrate to America?
Envy is not a productive emotion, and it often degrades into hate. There is a Middle Eastern man I read about who wants to immigrate "to America, where the poor people are fat". Americans do not know what tyranny is. We do not know what it is like to suffer, to slowly starve to death, or to be murdered, because of tyranny.
We Americans do not appreciate the freedoms that we have, freedoms that we take for grant it, and yes, freedoms that other people, including Iraqi's, are willing to die for. If the world does hates us, which I doubt, maybe our lack of appreciation for all that we have is the reason.
Do we not have a responsibility to recognize our freedoms, acknowledge that they are at stake, realize that we are very fortunate and unique, and try to spread that freedom to places where only terror reigns?
Posted by maggie on February 13, 2003 6:40 PM:
So, Patrick, lemme guess.
Republican, right?
Posted by Dalan on February 13, 2003 7:00 PM:
Patrick -
Beautiful, thoughful, and eloquent. Although I think she won't appreciate my concurrence, I agree with Maggie - Republican. And isn't it sad that she didn't think "American".
Posted by maggie on February 13, 2003 7:21 PM:
And isn't it sad that she didn't think "American". - dylan
Not any sadder than those who equate an anti-war stance with being anti-American.
"Yer either fer or agin us" only plays well in the movies. And, as we're all going to find out pretty damned quick, this isn't the movies.
Anyone else remember having dinner while we watched the body bags being unloaded, night after night, day after day, month after month, and year after year?
I do.
Posted by mel on February 13, 2003 7:48 PM:
America is the greatest country on Earth. Our freedoms need to be preserved and protected from those evil forces that want to snuff them out. If we must go to war and snuff out the evil forces of al Queda, Iraq and North Korea, so be it. If we don't they will find a way to attack us .. in our own country. The upcoming war is a fight to preserve the American way and our future.
Never ever forget September 11.
God Bless America.
Posted by lemurs on February 13, 2003 8:39 PM:
Well, that was the fastest that I've ever seen someone invoke Hitler in a discussion.
And to be frank, I'm more worried that extremists may have already taken over our country. We'd better get to being responsible citizens and exercising our right to protest and our freedom of speech while we still can.
Posted by lisa on February 13, 2003 8:49 PM:
Wow, such a response. I wasn't trying to start a debate, only find a marching companion.
For those unfamiliar with NION's mission, it includes protecting the freedom of Americans. Freedoms that the Patriot Act I, and the developing Patriot Act II, are taking away.
I want to participate in this march because I fear that if Patriot II passes, organizations like NION will be labeled "terrorist" and participating in these types of protest will result in a loss of US citizenship.
I am most afraid of what our government is trying to do to us, its own citizens, in the name of "protection".
This particular march caught my eye because it is attempting to point out the irony of the US demanding weapons inspections when we've got more weapons than anyone else. I don't understand why we get to tell every other country what they can and can't do- I mean, when was the US given the right to run the world? Doesn't sound very democratic to me.
To be honest, Patrick, I didn't bother to read your entire reply because, first of all, I'm just not interested, and second of all, I get the feeling I'm being labeled. I don't feel any need to explain my reasons or motivations, and you are equally entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. Trust me, though, your arguments will fall on very deaf ears.
However, I will note this:
The people we are at war with want to destroy America, and our way of life. They disagree with the very foundation on which our county was founded. They do not feel that all people are created equal. They do not feel that all people, regardless of their race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc etc are created equal and should enjoy the same rights. Our enemies do not believe that everyone has the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.
I agree with you completely- that is exactly how I feel about the current administration.
Nothing personal, mind you- but if you (or Mel) show up to the picnic Sunday, let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that, eh?
Posted by Linkmeister on February 13, 2003 9:07 PM:
Well, Maggie, I'm old enough to remember that too, so you're not quite alone there.
And the current administration has conveniently forgotten that Iraq didn't crash airplanes into the WTC, Osama (remember Osama? That name hasn't passed Bush's lips in public in six months) did.
Posted by NemesisVex on February 13, 2003 9:14 PM:
This war can't start soon enough. I need a new job, and if nuking a few Middle Eastern countries is what it takes to put this lagging economy back on track, I'm all for it.
Posted by maggie on February 13, 2003 9:51 PM:
Well, Maggie, I'm old enough to remember that too, so you're not quite alone there. - linkmeister
I didn't think I was. ;^) And, I didn't even have to mention which war it was.
And the current administration has conveniently forgotten that Iraq didn't crash airplanes into the WTC ... linkmeister
Isn't that the truth.
Posted by James on February 13, 2003 9:53 PM:
Hey Lisa, I'll march with you. I'm always up to do something.. controversial.
On the issues, I'm stuck in the middle. For one I support the overthrow of Saddam but I'm still bothered by the US meddling in the affairs of every other country in the world. I know we are a world super power and if we dont do it than nobody will.
Iraq has biological weapons, we know this. But so do a few other countries. Iraq is supposedly attempting to get weapons of mass destruction. But there are a lot of other countries who already have nuclear capabilities..
Russia, China, N. Korea. India, Pakistan, Israel, the United States of America among many other nations.
Now we want to tell others that oh it's too late to develop nukes, if they hadnt already done it in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's.
It's been said before, Yes Americans do have the freedom to protest. But the government still has the right to ignore the plea's of the people and go ahead with the war, labeling it as "Liberal Hysteria."
I wasn't even born at the time, but I think Viet Nam showed us that. ^
Does Iraq have ties to terrorism? Some say they do.
Saddam was paying $25,000 to the Families of Palestinian Suicide bombers. Saddam even recently said that he does not have ties to Al Quaida, but if he did that he wouldnt be ashamed to admit it.
But Saudi Arabia, a supposed friend and ally of the US (lmao) was holding fund raisers for the Palestinian cause and was recently linked to one of the 9/11 hijackers through money funneled from a Saudi Princess. If my memory serves me correctly, it was like 10 out of the 15 hijackers were Saudi's.
Okay, getting way off topic now but it all ties together.
We are heading to war, one way or another.
Islam & Western Culture are going to clash. The US supports Israel, while every Middle Eastern country can't wait for the demise of the Jewish State.
I think WAR definately has it's time and place, but we are not fighting a war against a nation of radicals. We are getting ready to bomb and possibly invade Iraq inorder to remove one man and his entourage from power, oh yeah and to free the Iraqi people. But what happens after we do all this. Are position in Iraq will be long term. The US can't free the people and step out of the way while the different sects fight for power.
Just as in Afghanistan, the US will have to set up an interim gov and protect it.
But yeah, I'll march! I don't think it will do much good. Georgie isn't gonna pull out, not when his father's honor is at stake.
Posted by Linkmeister on February 14, 2003 7:06 AM:
"Just as in Afghanistan, the US will have to set up an interim gov and protect it.
On that note, it's of interest that the Republican House Committee Chairman had to go ask the White House where the funding for aid to Afghanistan was in the new budget. Paraphrasing the response: "Oh, an oversight; sorry." (And that can be documented; I just don't have the link at hand right now).
Posted by maggie on February 14, 2003 7:23 AM:
And, speaking of chemical weapons -
Article
Posted by Ruth on February 14, 2003 2:06 PM:
Great topic. Definitely controversial, which is good.
The underpinnings of this conflict are very complex and go far, far deeper than whether Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person who cannot be trusted. I think people on both sides have a range of reasons for supporting or opposing the war. In this case, I oppose the war. Here's why:
There are many issues that can be discussed, and of course nuclear armorment is *just* one.
But here are some thoughts:
The Bush administration is condemning Iraq of doing what the U.S. is still doing. It's as if we're claiming a right to nuclear weapons while denying others the ability to do the same.
Words from former chief weapons inspector in Iraq Richard Butler, as quoted in the Sydney Morning Herald:
"Amongst my toughest moments in Baghdad were when the Iraqis demanded that I explain why they should be hounded for their weapons of mass destruction when, just down the road, Israel was not, even though it was known to possess some 200 nuclear weapons," he said.
"I confess, too, that I flinch when I hear American, British and French fulminations against weapons of mass destruction, ignoring the fact that they are the proud owners of massive quantities of those weapons, unapologetically insisting that they are essential for their national security, and will remain so."
In 2001 the U.S. weapons industry controlled approximately 50 percent of the world arms market. Of the 42 active conflicts in 1999, the U.S. supplied arms or military technology to parties in more than 92 percent of the conflicts. During virtually the same period, the U.S. delivered almost $6.8 billion in armt to nations widely considered to regularly violate basic standards of human rights and to countries that continue to recruit children for their official armed forces. You mention the atrocities going on because of people like Saddam, yet the U.S. is more than a silent bystander. We in some ways support certain portions of their economies, knowing that the benefits kick back to our economies.
In October 2002, for instance, an annual weapons conference and exhibition was held in Jordan. On display were ultramodern American-made weapons by lucrative companies, such as Sikorsky, Raytheon, Harris Corp., JPS, Pratt & Whitney, AM General and Environmental Tectonics. The roster of buyers included delegates from Iran, Iraq, Syria and Libya.
There is much discourse that can be accessed via Google simply on the question of whether we have the right to base a military strike on the issue of nuclear weapons.
Having said all that, I know the issue runs deeper than weapons. One has to take pause as to why the vilification of this one leader when the world abounds with tyrants. Is it because of nuclear weapons and the fact that he's a loose canon with a big gun? It's just that other countries are developing arms, most recently North Korea and India, yet the U.S. is not coming down with a heavy fist in the same way. Those countries, too, can arise and become dangerous. Those countries, too, inflict atrocities on their enemies, yet they are not the center of our interest.
With all the hypocrisy going on and no "pure" players in the disarmourment movement, I believe the weapons issue functions more like a springboard, or an excuse, actually, to bolster the rationale underneath the Bush administration's true intention to simply win a war over Iraq.
But why? Consider different speculations from various press sources:
- "U.S. plans war to control Iraq's oil wealth: experts" (Indo-Asian News Service)
- "Spoils of War" (ABC News)
- "Iraq: Is Oil America's Real War Aim?" (Radio Free Europe)
I'm not saying that you have to believe everything you read, and you have to always consider the source. There is simply so much information, I almost believe you cannot truly know who is "right" or "wrong." Because of this, however, I will not innocently trust that our involvement in the Middle East is purely altruistic.
Without complete clarity on everything that's going on and why, my decision to oppose the war ultimately boils down to who I am and my core beliefs. I believe war should be the very last option. Very last.
I believe the superpowers of this world have enough might to keep villanous behavior in check without being the aggressor. Other U.N. countries and surrounding Arab countries are pleading for a diplomatic solution. The U.S. should not escalate tension and incite intensified feelings of nationalism (for both Americans and Iraqis, and the rest of the world for that matter). Our actions will further burn into the minds of people the idea of "hate" and "enemy." Will bombing out Iraq bring peace? My gut feeling is that it won't. War will not annihilate what Saddam or Osama stand for. Destroying the land and people contained within a nation's borders will not stop the evil. Afganistan was leveled, but tentrils of who they are, their deep-rooted ideologies and their ravenous networks exist worldwide - and strongly so. If we go to war with Iraq, and indeed Saddam is deposed as skillfully planned, will "terror" or the Al Quaida or other tyrants and their ways cease to exist? Will the world, then, have peace? Be even a step closer to peace? I can assuredly answer "no." What we will have is a more volatile world. We've already seen U.N. countries angered by how we've been behaving and the things that the administration has been saying. If we move unilaterally (which will most likely be the case), we will have at the very least gained resentment from countries we consider our allies. The terrorist networks that the U.S. (with our immense intelligence) have failed to outsmart will be more deeply enraged and will be fueled with an even greater sense of conviction to keep their mission strong.
On a side note, but one powerfully relevant, one of the things that makes me sad is the vitriol that can exist on both sides of the debate, perhaps not in this disucssion per se, but in general. I've immersed myself in conversations or engaged in events with people on both sides (believe me, I've seen both sides having politically convservative Southern Baptists in my immediate family and also being a liberal at heart and having attended rallies similiar to NION). Sad to say, I've heard name calling and have felt an uncomfortable degree of anger and bitterness on both sides. So much self-righteousness on both sides of the coin. I almost cannot stand to be surrounded by the "vibe."
Will I be going to the march? I'm really ambivalent. I went to the last march and didn't feel comfortable for the reason explained in the previous paragraph. If I do go, I know I'll have to endure some discomfort in exchange for supporting a worthy cause. Also, the demands for inspection would be quite a scene - and who would want to miss that?
Posted by Ryan on February 14, 2003 4:19 PM:
One, I'm not a supporter of the Bush administration's stance on Iraq. Like many, I wonder why these 'principles' aren't applied to North Korea, or Pakistan for that matter. I look suspiciously at the way energy and security firms are already lining up to exploit the spoils of Iraq oil. And like one UK commentator said last year, I find the shift of all American attention from Osama bin Laden and Al Qaida to Iraq to be among the biggest public-relations coups in modern history. (Not only can we not link Saddam to Osama, but the latest Osama tape essentially calls for Saddam's ouster... albeit because he's secular, not because the U.S. wants it.)
But two, neither am I really sold on the NION/ANSWER-driven anti-war effort. Primarily because, with any diverse movement, there will be some elements that are not ideologically compatible with others within a single protest crowd (i.e. libertarians and communists) - which is interesting, to say the least.
I am glad there is debate, and folks protesting and speaking their minds, because as has been mentioned several times already, that's what America's all about.
Thus, I would take exception to painting peace-mongers as "anti-American." I would fear them - passionate and relatively educated (if not biased) on the relevant issues - less than I fear the "average" American who doesn't know or even doesn't want to know What It's All About, but will back any view that's socially or politically expedient.
I am surprised by how immediate this is for some people, though. I'll enter a debate, often, looking just for a good battle of wits and rhetoric. Yet just recently, I had said something about Bush and Iraq in a purely social situation that prompted someone to leave the room. So as far as level heads have presided here, bravo.
Posted by Puka Shorts on February 15, 2003 4:22 PM:
So, Maggie, lemme guess.
Socialist, right?
Posted by maggie on February 15, 2003 4:59 PM:
Socialist, right? - puka shorts
Nah. Just your run-of-the-mill against the war with Iraq and prostituting our dead for oil and personal gain kind of gal.
I'm a simple soul, who quit falling for the old "who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes" line a couple of decades ago.
Posted by Puka Shorts on February 15, 2003 6:45 PM:
Maggie
Whats really sad is that the gist of Dalans lament escaped you in your rush to spout leftist platitudes.
"Yer either fer or agin us" may indeed only play well in movies, but your ilks aversion to that rational rings a might hollow considering how enthusiasticly you people embrace the "enemy of my enemy" mindset.
Unlike you, I never had the luxury of "having dinner" while watching "the body bags being unloaded, night after night", I was too busy unloading them.
Posted by maggie on February 15, 2003 7:03 PM:
Whats really sad is that the gist of Dalans lament escaped you in your rush to spout leftist platitudes.
No it didn't. I've heard it before.
"Yer either fer or agin us" may indeed only play well in movies, but your ilks aversion to that rational rings a might hollow considering how enthusiasticly you people embrace the "enemy of my enemy" mindset.
My "ilk"? Care to elaborate Mr. Puka?
Unlike you, I never had the luxury of "having dinner" while watching "the body bags being unloaded, night after night", I was too busy unloading them.- puka shorts
Then you should be sick to death at the thought of another one being filled.
Posted by Puka Shorts on February 15, 2003 7:23 PM:
To be honest, Patrick, I didn't bother to read your entire reply because, first of all, I'm just not interested, and second of all, I get the feeling I'm being labeled. I don't feel any need to explain my reasons or motivations, and you are equally entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. Trust me, though, your arguments will fall on very deaf ears. -Lisa
The intellectual curiosity of the left, continues to underwhelm me.
Lisa, I note this is "exactly how (you) feel about the current administration."
The people we are at war with want to destroy America, and our way of life. They disagree with the very foundation on which our county was founded. They do not feel that all people are created equal. They do not feel that all people, regardless of their race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc etc are created equal and should enjoy the same rights. Our enemies do not believe that everyone has the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.
Being the intellectually curious conservative that I am, and knowing how much stock the left puts into feelings as opposed to say... reason, I wonder how you came to "feel" the way you do?
Nah. Just your run-of-the-mill against the war with Iraq and prostituting our dead for oil and personal gain kind of gal. -Maggie
Jeez Maggie, enough with the bromides already, don't you guys on the left ever have an original thought?
I'm a simple soul, who quit falling for the old "who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes" line a couple of decades ago. -Maggie
Tell me you were equally outraged, about Clintons various little sordid lies, intrigues, and foreign adventures, then I will believe you.
Posted by lisa on February 15, 2003 8:36 PM:
I wonder, can you explain to me how it's possible to be "curious" about something as "intellectual" as regurgitating the drivel broadcast 24/7 on Faux News?
Patriot Act and TIA. If you haven't read the details, you ought to, then you'll know that taking away personal liberties is not something I feel is happening- it's something that has already, in fact, happened and is quite likely to continue happening unless we stand up against it.
Posted by lisa on February 15, 2003 8:44 PM:
Because I found this interesting:
CNN's front page
Fox news front page
Also on the Wall Street Journal fornt page, first story; and on MSNBC and others.
Posted by Puka Shorts on February 15, 2003 8:49 PM:
No it didn't. I've heard it before. -Maggie
Really? Then tell me what you think Dalan meant, and why you chose to change the subject.
My "ilk"? Care to elaborate Mr. Puka? -Maggie
Sure, America hating socialists.
Then you should be sick to death at the thought of another one being filled. -Maggie
What makes you think I'm not? I'm even sicker at the thought of the cost of appeasment.
Posted by lisa on February 15, 2003 8:50 PM:
OK Puka, up til now this topic wasn't getting insulting and personal, and different viewpoints were being shared without unpleasantnes.
It's obvious you're just looking to pick a fight, and I suggest youlook elsewhere- there are plenty of sites and newsgroups where such behavior is encouraged. However, this is not one of them.
I find it especially interesting that those who are quickest to jump to attack are the ones we know least about.
I will be more than happy to close this thread to comments or remove it completely if we can't be respectful to each other.
Posted by Puka Shorts on February 15, 2003 9:04 PM:
And to be frank, I'm more worried that extremists may have already taken over our country. We'd better get to being responsible citizens and exercising our right to protest and our freedom of speech while we still can. -Lemurs
OK Frank, why are you so worried? What makes you think "extremists may have already taken over our country"? The extremists were in power, they've been voted out.
Posted by lisa on February 15, 2003 9:13 PM:
Enough's enough, and I'm closing this thread to comments.
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